future for chainlinkKyber Network Live Q&A: Chainlink Integration, Decentralized Oracles, & The Future of DeFi

kryptowaluta chainlink chainlink ico news future for chainlink Kyber Network Live Q&A: Chainlink Integration, Decentralized Oracles, & The Future of DeFi

yeah we are good yes all right yeah thanks a lot everyone for joining us today i really want to thank the kyber network community uh as well as well as the chain link community and just the greater blockchain community for for joining us today from all around the world uh really excited to have sonny jane uh the head of product at kyber network as well as uh shane hong the marketing director at kyber network joining us today um so a little bit about the rundown how this is going to go uh we got a list of preset questions that were going to go about and asking if you have questions feel free to drop them into the chat well try our best to get to them if we dont get to them feel free to drop them into the the are both of our telegrams and well do our best to get to them there so without further ado um shane and sunny do you want to maybe give a quick intro about yourselves a little bit about your background and uh what you guys are working on at kyber network okay sure uh maybe i will start first so first of all thanks kenan for inviting us here i mean its been so this is my first video ama i have been mostly either on the live physical events or or whether the telegram chat so very excited about it um so im right now head of product at kyber network uh prior to this so most of my experience has been around product management and ui ux optimization so and thats and thats exactly what i do at kyber network uh prior to hybrid network i was working with the apple and lazada so those people were not available is like kind of amazon of southeast asia is was eventually acquired by alibaba so there i was working with alipay to to push their payments across southeast asia so my experience has been out and out in fintech and product management developing and launching products uh right now at kyber network i like so we have a product called kyber swap its a its a decentralized exchange that is using carbon network as it backend um so its one of the top most uh top one of the most used decent life change in the world so im heading the product there i work with so we have a big team based in vietnam so and ive been working on on on this since i joined kyber network for the last ive been with carbon network for the last two years awesome yeah thanks thanks for sharing i was telling shane uh earlier you know i think i think kyber swap is one of the the first d5 products you can say that i ever used and i just love your ux and uh user experience and user interface and its just so so easy to use so definitely big props to you and everything that youre working on its its i i hope youre still using it i mean so just to our viewers like if you if you are looking for a place to lets say so to to put a link token on your on your on your portfolio uh kyber swap is one of the best place to get the rates i mean one of the best rate it is one of the top 30 token on on kyber swap mainly on the buy side people buy it a lot cool yeah well drop these links in uh after after the video is finished uh shane do you want to maybe introduce yourself a bit and what youre working on yeah just lets do a quick introduction first of all thank you again for inviting us here so im shane uh i help with the marketing side of things at kyber so i mean we we are startup so um we actually i mean like all of us have to wear actually many hats at the office and apart from marketing im also helping with the communications and the community side of things so we have about close to 200 000 in total community members and developers working with kyber in all different channels and a lot of a lot of what i do is helping to manage the community engaging with them and helping to kind of educate them about whats going on with kyber what are the new updates what they should discuss with regards to our new governance proposals so um previously before i joined kyber i was also working in marketing but in a totally different industry i was in a german uh company called villarreal and bulk and its like a really uh old school company right its a 270 plus year history so its very different from how its like at a startup but uh that experience has uh been very interesting in trying to kind of marry uh traditional real um typical marketing techniques with how its like in the crypto space right where there are a lot of memes there a lot of uh viral uh uh gifs and and and content that uh yeah its it was something new for me when i joined kyber but ive gotten used to it i think for ching ling the training community and the community both love you know this kind of content so ive ive yeah been enjoying myself working in the crypto space uh and i work very closely with sunny on both kyber swap and kyber network well yeah thanks for sharing yeah i know like taking like startup experience from my past has definitely like helped with like just everything in crypto man it moves so so fast its crazy uh cool so yeah maybe sunny if you want to maybe just explain a little bit about how kyber swap works and then maybe how uh youre utilizing chain link decentralized oracles into into your platform uh sure so basically kyber swap available at kyberswap.com uh we also have mobile apps available android and ios both official um so its pretty simple i would say like theyre like three steps that i i normally say that you you know you connect your wallet you choose your tokens and you click swap thats it right so there is no um nothing else required and we dont have any such limitation on how much you can trade as much as you want uh we are decentralized so theres no deposit no withdrawal uh there is no even i would say like uh no no kyc requirement as well so yeah youre like totally free and so one of the key thing right sir when we were uh so so and like if i want to talk about kyber supriser we have process over half a billion worth of trading volume in this year um on an average we we transact one swap per minute and thats pretty high compared to if you look at the crypto average so i mean thats how big we have become um so the scale is very high uh so any so one other thing that then people swap right we we show to the user the slippage so so those people who are familiar with dex will understand what slippage is for those who do not understand let me explain uh slippage is basically if you are doing a swap lets say 200 e2 link okay so then we should because your size of the trade is so big the average price you will get probably will not be the same as what we showed to you so there would be some slippage because of the trade size so the impact on the price because of trade size so if we show you like you know 2008 to link your your the slippage would be 0.01 percent thats very minimal so user will go through but if we show you that you know if you do 200 tooling and the slippage would be 10 thats a very detriment factor to the user and we think that we need to show it to the user we can never be hundred percent accurate but we try to be as accurate as possible so as you can see right showing high slippage can actually be a detriment to the conversion of the user when he is swapping so so we have seen right if we show high slippage we were seeing customer drop off they were not choosing to proceed with the swap so thats why and one of the key thing right when we show slip slippage whats the reference price we take right so if we show you your net average price after the swap would be 100 but its 100 is less than 10 of the average price so what should be the average price so that reference price that reference data was the critical for us so when when we were looking at different options you know we wanted something like very reliable very easy to integrate with and something that doesnt require so many resources so we look at actually we did we did we took almost a month to to evaluate different situations so we look at first like often data so you know even though it is possible right so we we wanted lets say we take the price feed from from different exchanges both centralized and decentralized average the price and use that as a reference price to show the to show that to show the slippage but i mean even though this were technically possible uh it has two or three issues one of them it was resource heavy uh technically very challenging to bring option data to one chain and i mean even if we do that we still need some resources to take care of it you know and because everything did depend on this one the second we look at on chain right we were looking at if we can find a service that can give us that reference data so it solves our problem so we look at several options of course chain link was our obvious choice because its big is reliable and to be honest i mean even though we took almost a month to decide on that it took us almost like one or two days to integrate with chilling it was super simple it has been working extremely extremely reliable on that one so and the third is it has zero cost of maintenance like we just integrated once and we have like completely forgotten about it and even when i look at the impact on our business i see the customer conversion has improved by almost 10 percent wow thats thats the impact you know i mean uh so we use at least on kyber swap we use chain link for a reference data and that we we use that and because its so reliable and kyber is known to give the best rate so slippage is always very less and so so the users are happy we are happy zero course its like i think its a win-win situation we are very happy to use channeling awesome yeah yeah those are thats very interesting and i know theres been like a lot of questions about you know you make this decision and theres a lot of technical debt that goes into either building your own or thinking about you know integrating something like chain link and then like how long does that enter integration actually like take itself and people dont realize you know its like you know its a little bit of work but its easy to get done and uh able to get started uh yeah once we yeah we jumped deeper into kyber swap uh just wanted to uh expound a little bit about uh kyber network as well so um kyber is actually the on-chain degree protocol which aggregates uh different liquidity sources in order to provide the best available rates among those sources and this protocol is permissionless meaning any other adapts that need like liquidity they need token swaps uh within their platform they can integrate kyber for their needs and kyber swap is just one out of 100 over different depths that are actually using kyber at the moment we dont have like specific research on this but we believe we are the most integrated uh d5 protocol at the moment last year binance actually did a research on the most used protocols in d5 and kybers actually came up top and we hope to also you know educate more developers and and depths in the space about what kyber can offer for them uh in terms of their liquidity needs so yeah sorry to cut in sunny just wanted to highlight the difference between kyber network and kyber sword because people tend to you know uh confuse uh presidency 100 no i think that brings up a really good point and what what are some of your favorite like either hackathon projects that youve seen people built within kyber network or just other other integrations that that have utilized uh kyber network itself oh a very famous one uh in the space uh actually two rare famous ones recently are a parasol and one inch uh last year we did a hackathon d5 hackathon and the winner uh which was called d5z then now called zapify they they they were the champions for a hackathon and they went on to get a grunt uh from metacartel as well and now they are one of the very popular um uh adapts that are actually you know composing different d5 protocols together to make it easier for users i think uh another dab that one one of our bounties in our hackathon is called gelato finance they were also a grantee from metacartel so i think sunny has some examples like noah and instadap from india uh something you want to share yeah so i mean we have two very famous success stories from india so if you have today our your viewers from india so inside app was i think they were the winner of the first ep india hackathon and they built adapt a decentralized exchange using carbon network at the back end very much like hybrid swap and then they eventually uh go on from there to build up instead app they use carbon networks specifically for for liquidation uh and i think uh uh a lot of like uh a big swaps from each to stable coins um so i mean they they got funding from coinbase uh and several other uh big vcs from from from us um they got two million funding and instant app and everybody knows about it its very hit now then the second one is new network new is a mark they started as a margin trading platform they also were using kyber specifically for liquidation purpose uh the reason is that kyber can handle uh like a very big trade seamlessly on a from from a decentralized exchange perspective so like i can tell like in last last to last month the biggest trade that we handled was 1200 eat in a single transaction and and with like a sleep is less than one percent so that was like one of the big thing that we did so newer network was using us uh so no got funding from sequo uh to build uh a dg bank uh specifically for us market i think is still in progress so these are the two successful stories um later on if we if you have a developers who are looking to how to build with carbon network i can guide them theyre like we have a very systematic process in which we can guide them if theyre new to blockchain we can tell them like how to to to to you know to start getting into blockchain and ethereum and eventually go to the smart contact level uh so yeah so this is this is these are some of the success stories that we have with hybrid yeah i have a couple about to add so uh like actually more than a couple that a lot of good examples actually but i just wanted to highlight a few so um most people in crypto uh they need like uh a wallet a crypto wallet to kind of store their funds or to trade and some of the popular most popular crypto wallets out there like trust engine uh argand uh edu pillar they all have integrated kyber natively uh recently theres uh an app called digi fox uh which was created by um one of the biggest youtube crypto youtubers uh called data dash nicholas murden so he has actually interviewed and reviewed uh countless of different um blockchain projects and he decided to go with kyber uh to integrate kyber for his uh dab uh which is called digi fox that he launched recently so yeah we we are like on it right theres so many different d5 depths in the space that are using kyber and i think this is testament to the fact that our protocol is really truly permissionless its really easy to integrate developers that have integrated us have always commented that the documentation is very easy to follow uh and and yeah and our developers are ready to help them as well so yeah its nice to see uh us you know being right in the heart of d5 and being uh understood by a lot of these dev developers yeah i mean thats no joke those are all becoming very big household names between one inch pair swap um insta dap all these are are climbing and it really shows you right there right at the core of all these and its great getting excited about the developer community around this and well drop the links um to their discord so everyone can join as well uh after after this conversation uh but you know its fun to sit there and kind of speculate on things but you know none of this would be possible without without the developers that are that are building this sunny if someones just getting into you know maybe theyre a web developer in the past what would be how where do you recommend them kind of start if theyre looking to just kind of become a watch question i mean i i get this question almost from every every event so uh so this is a perfect example so lets say when i started right i was coming from a very payments and fintech background but i did not have a blockchain experience right when i entered into kyber uh two years ago so uh i would say that you know dont jump straight into into the smart contract i would say like you know you you you get you know get into the school then graduate then you go for like you know super high like post graduate level right so this is what i tell to everyone right you start with lets say our api right these are the rest apis if you are a web developer you are super familiar with this right so you can actually build an exchange for any application that require token exchange using kyber apis you do not need to write any smart contact in fact you dont have to do anything with the with the blocks and you actually total cut your off from the from the ethereum blockchain but youre still building an application for the blockchain so that that i would say is the starting point and we have like uh like engine wallet right it has in ticket with kyber network and they have been using only api they have like theyve been using it it works super successful scalable so its not like a small thing you can build super successful highly scalable application using our apis the second once lets say youre comfortable api and you want to go you know a level further right you can start you know use our java like any standard javascript library and try to integrate you know so what api does is that behind the scene is use the javascript library to to call a method directly on on a blockchain or a smart contract so you can bypass that api and you can start doing it by yourself so even when youre using a javascript library youre still not writing a smart contract but you have gone a level further you have built your better understanding of how how the how the like ethereum blockchain work how the function calling works you know the mass around ways and ethereum it can be really overwhelming at start right um you whatever you have built using api you can build the same thing using using using javascript libraries but um its gonna be like you will have better understanding and probably you can add much more functionality that currently api is not offering uh so lets say you do that and youre super comfortable with that now i think you would be ready because you have solid understanding of how the transaction on a blockchain works how everything works where you would stock up you know and all this thing so then you can go and start writing you know smart contract uh that i would sing like you know the highest line thats the top of it and then you can do whatever you want to do but uh as far as ive seen right most of the things you can actually get done by apis or or you know a smart contact and i think this is the same way you can also interact with you know chain link right you if you want data from them you can uh probably using api or you can just use the javascript library you dont have to write smart contract to use chain link you can actually do it without that also so i think it has really helped to some people that i have told i mean this is how i started uh and uh you know once you get familiar with it this is then then you know you start going to that providing heart contact at the very first can be very overwhelming and challenging to some people i mean it was to me yeah yeah so what what product development and you mentioned a few uh just previously are you most excited about in d5 you know that are both using kyber swap and chain link themselves uh yeah yeah uh wait before i go to that question i like to add on to what sunny said earlier so even for non-developers going at it to even high level right not uh not even to the smart contract or to the uh like coding level if you are just a web developer i mean or you just own a website and you want to be able to allow your users to swap tokens on your website or uh accept token payments for anything youre trying to sell we have something called a kyber widget so we you can just go to kuiper.network you can see a link there at the top so with the kaiba widget we we have a widget generator where you just key in certain parameters like which tokens you want to support uh what what token pair you want to accept for uh payments for whatever goods or services youre selling and you just press a button and they generate a html source code for you which you can just copy and paste uh onto your site and you know right there theres a a button where you can actually just click on your site and people can trade tokens they can pay using different erc20 tokens for whatever youre selling so this can be done actually within a few minutes uh like some of the popular gaming uh sites for example boolean x where they tokenite they have nfts which are backed by real gold made by i think jesse and dan they use the kyber widget recently snx.link a project created by i think emiliano and simone they where they actually make it easier for you to actually uh um stake a claim your snx rewards they are also using the kyber widget uh on their site so they have told me that you know they they really took a a really fast time to actually integrate that and but i mean they are developers but im um as as i explained earlier its just a matter of keying in the parameters generating uh the html code and just inputting it that onto your website thats it and you can accept tokenpayments so this is one of the ways where we try to make it easier even for developers to get a sense of how kyber works uh and and really see it coming to effect like you know just within a few minutes yeah yeah so i think you mentioned one there too with like bowling x and uh nfts and theyre using chain link vrf uh sunny what what are you most excited about in d5 uh features that are being used that are utilizing uh chain link and kyber um i think uh so so i so some of my favorite project like one of them is synthetics i think uh they use a chain link so i mean ig just give you a very practical example right so uh so i am busy in singapore right um so even though for me its really easy to to go and trade in u.s market but the trading fees and all the hassle of uh different working hours and everything is such pain right so what synthetics is that they what they plan to have is synthetic assets like you know i want to trade like apple stocks on hana blockchain right and uh thats that that really excites me i think thats just a really uh amazing use case right and that is i think in a very like that is in a way is the very best use case of channeling now you want to do something on chain on a blockchain and you need data from option word right so thats and and i think uh the whole synthetic side if i mean apple is just an example right there are like more than 5000 uh symbols available on nasdaq right and then you talk about lets say india right another seven thousand singapore actually another four thousand like the its an ocean right i mean synthetics alone i think that would be very challenging for them to go and you know integrate as i said right they can do it but why take such a pin when there is a simpler much more reliable route available for for you right so i think that thats thats one of the thing that really excites me and im i closely follow synthetics in in that way uh and ive been following them from from day one right so i mean i can tell you right there was a time when synthetics actually i attended their launch party in in sydney last year also uh in april may uh so there was a time when i could look at synthetics and i look at the bdc price there and i can see theres an arbitrage from the real price because they were not updating it that fast and i think a lot of people took advantage of that also but now when i see after the integrated chain link is as live as it can be right so its pretty good i mean thats that i think it to me the concept is nice a very good use case for chain link also and and and a lot of freedom to people also right now anyone from the world can trade in any market yeah yeah thats it its groundbreaking and its really exciting so we have a few minutes left and i really wanted to get to this um so you launched catalyst which is the the kyber network dao uh i want to get into you know what really excites you about dows and then maybe if you can explain a little bit about what catalyst is and uh what what the kyber dao is sure so catalyst is uh what we call our recent protocol upgrade we just it was just a play on the word uh catalyst changing the c to to k uh just to fit the kyber theme and what this protocol entailed was we are now allowing depths to actually set their own business model so previously they only could get a fixed uh fee if they integrated kyber uh and this fee comes from part of the uh the fees paid by the liquidity providers but right now they are able to set their own customized fee up to them uh on top of uh the integration and this gives them a lot of flexibility because uh you know depths they they need to be sustainable right they need to run a business of their own uh if they choose to they can charge no fees but um there are certain debts which want to and we want just to give everyone this option so this is one of the major things that came with catalyst another thing is previously our reserves our liquidity providers on kyber they actually need to hold knc as part of the like the fees that they have to pay every time a trade occurs through their reserve uh what we did with calculus was to just remove this entirely so they reserves when they want to provide liquidity on kai but they no longer actually need to hold any knc which removes a very major like a friction point for them um apart from that we also have a um that we also launched a kaiba dell which is decentralized governance platform and all knc holders now have the opportunity to actually stick their tokens on the dow and uh they are able to theyre eligible to actually vote on certain proposals on certain decisions that will affect kind of the direction the development of the entire protocol so this kind of kind of like empowers every knc holder to to have actually have an actual stake on kyber to actually have a incentive to uh make sure kaiba does well and uh in return for their efforts in return for participating governance knt holders actually can uh get rewards in eve in return so recently we just concluded our first voting phase what we call an epoch so epoch 1 and we had our first proposal that went live as well we we had about 2580 voters and 57 million knc staked so far which is about uh 80 85 million usd uh on the blockchain smart contract uh sticking smart contract so i think uh at least in within the ethereum d5 space so far we this this is either one of the largest or even the largest uh participation rate that we have seen uh in the space and yeah its really heartening to see that because a lot of the the months of hard work that we the whole team put in since last year in november when we first announced catalyst uh finally come to fruition and we are seeing that um that you know on chain governance uh is is is is actually doable um you know voter participation uh incentivizing increase in photo participation is something that a lot of dial projects a lot of people that are working on dials theyre trying to solve and address and a kyber at least you know in our unique example for our community we have shown that this is possible 2000 over people have actually you know spent guests to vote on uh a proposal and and to decide on uh the direction of how kyber is gonna uh go so yeah the catalyst the kyber down because this came came together it was launched at the same time but in general these are the kind of the benefits that we uh have have introduced to to uh enhance the liquidity that we are able to provide to all the 100 over depths that are using kyber awesome just to add on so even in kyber dao we are using chain link so all the prices that shin said right 57 million knc is 87 million us dollars so all the price conversion all the all the reference prices we are taking from chain link of course that has helped us to save weeks of work uh i mean because we took our experience from kaiba swap it took us like few days just to do all the things so yeah i mean just to let you know that even for kyber swap and tower now we are using chain link as a as our exclusive pricing source one more thing as well uh so as part of the dell proposals uh when when there are trading fees that are collected part of it uh actually burned right so the fees are collected in eth so these eave would be used to purchase knc and the knz will be burnt so this is just one of the tokens utility uh its theres a deflationary element to it so during this burning process we actually use chain link uh for this token pair price fee uh like sunny mentioned so yeah forgot to add about that earlier yeah thats really exciting and super impressive about many people voting i think thats like a big challenge with a lot of people that are creating dows and decentralized governance models its like all right how do i get people to actually vote on these things people are maybe a little more speculative do you have like one piece of advice for anyone thats starting a dow how to like get this kind of involvement that you guys have seen this success i would say um you have to kind of reconcile both the off chain and on-chain elements of uh running a dial running a community in general so on chain is great because of the benefits of the blockchain right transparency uh decentralization uh essential censorship resistance so thats great but um on chain votes in itself in the dow is is i mean its meaningless if before that you know prior to that or even during the process of post voting process there is uh you know debates discussions uh going around going on around the proposals that are being made so the kind of rough so-called rough consensus that is uh derived from all these discussions from all the engagement with the community uh from you know the the back and forth debates on on on reddit on the forums all these play a part as well to kind of inform the final voting decision uh from each of these voters so you you have to you know when i mean this is a just very generic advice for anyone starting a dao uh community is the key to a decentralized autonomous organization uh the blockchain part and makes certain things much more efficient or much more transparent but uh the heart of the the dow is still the community still the humans behind the machine so yeah this is just one piece of advice that i can share based on our own experience i i can give some points from the product perspective because i was uh guiding the the product at kyber.org uh at which our kyber tower is available so uh in my opinion ive used several dao before uh it theyre very complicated to design from a product perspective just to give you an example right so as shin talk about that our voting period is considered is called as epoch um so if you stay knc in epoch one which is lets say two weeks then you can vote in epoch 2 but you will get your reward in epoch 3. so there is a sequence now you can you know deposit in epoch 1 withdraw then deposit more into then withdraw you can do as many things as you want so this is one thing that i like we saw that you know we actually before we start getting into the product we map all the user journey this is what the user want to do what not to do this and that and this can be really confusing so there are two things that we focus a lot when we were designing hyper.all is i call it call to action so on every page uh we try to give only one button that you can click this call to action is only one so even if you are lost or you dont know right you know there is only one place to click so you will click there and then we use a very i mean very refined messaging to guide you okay so this is the first step you are stacking right when you stick okay now you have stick but you will be able to vote in the next epoch and you must vote to get your rewards so when you are voting right then we say okay now you have voted successfully then you wait for the next epoch to claim your reward when youre claiming you reward now youre claiming your reward this much if you will get so these kind of messaging we have like focused a lot um and uh i was real no way we are perfect we are still improving uh but uh so far we have not seen any question uh i have not seen any question when people are saying like i dont know how to stick or i dont know how to vote i dont know how to claim so at least from like three basic uh operations on on down right staking voting and re claiming your reward ive been super smooth no questions uh to me is a big win yeah i think your your design choices and user experience of just how you just go about creating all your products speak volumes for the amount of success that you have and um excited to see it continue so i i think that wraps up our q a today sonny and shane i really want to thank you for for joining us i know its getting getting late uh where you are and very grateful for your time um is there any one last thing that we might have missed that you want to want to say no i mean im okay i mean you have asked a really interesting question i was super excited and do share me with the wallpaper that you have behind you i would like to download it uh yeah and i mean this was my first video ama i mean i really enjoyed it and really nice questions that you have asked yeah but same here i really enjoyed this virtual fireside chat um and glad to be able to share more about how kyber is using uh chain link and and kuber swap and and kyber dao and hope that there will be um yeah more updates uh about you know how we can work together in the future i think uh i mean the training community knows rory very well weve spoken to rory a couple of times on other avenues of collaboration and yeah look forward to uh yeah more of these updates in the future and yeah once again thank you uh for having us today kenan yeah yeah thanks a lot and then for everyone else tuning in make sure to subscribe for whenever we go live or post new videos uh youll get a notification as well as kyber network will be speaking at smart contract virtual summit um itll be august 28th and 29th well drop all the links to join our communities as well as to get your complimentary ticket for smart contract summit uh in the description below it should be updated in a few hours and uh yeah really looking forward to it and thank you guys both for joining us thank you man thank you Join the Kyber Network team and Chainlink for a video Q&A is with Sunny Jain and Shane Hong of Kyber Network, Discussion will be centered on decentralized oracles meeting the needs of DeFi, new product updates from Kyber Network including Katalyst and KyberDAO. _________ 1:00 Introduction to Sunny Jain Head of Product, Shane Hong Marketing Director, and Cyber Network 5:24 - How KyberSwap utilizes Chainlink decentralized oracles 8:50 - Integration process of Chainlink oracles equalling a customer conversion increase of over 10% 11:50 - Building on Kyber Network and developer success stories 16:50 - How to get started as a blockchain developer 19:00 - Using Kyber widget and Chainlink reference contracts for easy dApp development 23:10 - Importance of synthetic assets for decentralized finance DeFi and big use case of Chainlink 26:00 - Introduction of Kyber Katalyst and KyberDAO 30:20 - Use of Chainlink oracles on KyberDAO 31:00 - Advice for other projects building a DAO for voting engagement _________ Kyber is an on-chain liquidity protocol that can be integrated into any application to enable the exchange of tokens without the need for an intermediary. 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